<nettime> right / civil / human / rights [guibert, riemens, angela, geer]

["nettime's_review_process" <nettime@bbs.thing.net>]

Right of answer please/ Re: <nettime> Civil and human Rights (from indymedia)
     "Aliette Guibert" <guibertc@criticalsecret.com>
Re: <nettime> Civil and human Rights (from indymedia)
     Patrice Riemens <patrice@xs4all.nl>
RE: <nettime> Civil and human Rights (from indymedia)
     ".: s0metim3s :." <s0metim3s@optusnet.com.au>
Re: Right of answer please/ Re: <nettime> Civil and human Rights
     Benjamin Geer <ben@socialtools.net>
Re: Rddight of answer please/ Re: <nettime> Civil and human Rights
     Benjamin Geer <ben@socialtools.net>

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From: "Aliette Guibert" <guibertc@criticalsecret.com>
Subject: Right of answer please/ Re: <nettime> Civil and human Rights (from indymedia)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 07:07:14 +0200

Sorry on my English -I am just a little "bad" frenchie but in a defy to
answer...
Nevertheless as I try being understood.

----- Original Message ----- 
from: "Benjamin Geer" <ben@socialtools.net>
to: "Aliette Guibert" <guibertc@criticalsecret.com>
cc: <nettime-l@bbs.thing.net>
sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 8:42 PM
subject: Re: <nettime> Civil and human Rights (from indymedia)

Me:
Who are you to show so much contempt and aggressiveness? What are your
political convictions? Is the law your personal fundamentalism? You dream at
night to return vengeance? Or simply you do not know about what you speak?
In case simply you do not know about what you speak, here is some
supplementary information:

> Aliette Guibert wrote:

Sorry: Aliette (I) has not written but published a forwarded
material -probably drafted by the committee of support including lawyers-
from indymedia
(a forwarded material of which obviously I agree with ;-)

> > Around 150 former Italian activists, condemned in Italy for actions
linked
> > with the political and social upheaval of the 1970s
>
> Translation: nutters who believed that murdering politicians and random
> civilians would make them popular.

You would talk on this one refugee in Japan: Delfo Zorzi and his friends ?
That one just being pardoned who is coming back in freedom to Italy ?
Amnesty only for this part ? Justice -what? Please, hear any friend who is
so old that she/he could see and remembering about which follows (I was
still an adult in this time and remembering myself).

    Quote (sorry on the translation of mine):

    "The fascists of Piazza settled Fontana

    While the newspaper Liberation of Friday (in March 12th) and Le Monde of
Saturday (dated on Sunday, March 14th) are made the vectors of an
ideological counter-offensive on behalf of Italian left activists, of a
talented writer and of big good name (Magris) and of an editorial writer of
the Stampa (Spinelli), the judges of the Court of Appeal of Milan decided,
on March 12th, just the day after the attacks in Spain, to settle Delfo
Zorzi (taken refuge in Japan and Japanese citizen), Carlo Maria Maggi and
Giancarlo Rognoni, condemned forever to have been the authors or the
accomplices of the attack of Piazza Fontana in 1969.
    On December 12th, 1969, the first attack "blind of mass", Italian was
committed in the bank of the Agriculture, Piazza Fontana, with 17 deaths and
87 wounded persons.
    The police accuses at first an anarchistic railroad employee, Pinelli,
who will be committed suicide by the police captain Calabresi at night of
December 15th to 16th. (See Dario Fo's Play "Accidental Death of an
anarchist").
    Then he is Valpreda, a dancer and an anarchist too who is charged at the
same time as Merlino. The confessions of a young leader of the Milanese DC
open neofascists' track: Freda, Ventura and Giannettini are condemned for
eternity in 1979.
    Valpreda and Merlino is acquitted, but four-year-old condemned persons
to have belonged to a subversive association (sic.
    In 1981, the Court of Appeal decrees the innocence of these fascists in
the attack.
    In 1987, two other fascists are condemned, Stefano delle Chiaie and
Massimiliano Fachini. Two years later they are settled both.
    A committing magistrate of Milan, Guido Salvini, takes back right
extremists' old track: Delfo Zorzi, who took refuge in Japan, Rognoni, Nico
Azzi, Paolo Signorelli, Sergio Calore, Carlo Digilio and Ettore Malcangi.In
this inquiry, Lucio Gelli's nomù (boss of the Lodge P2) will be often
quoted.
    On June 30th, 2001, Zorzi, Maggi e Rognoni, are condemned for
eternity -but you see how eternity could be brief:)
    Until last March 12th. Last Thursday. Piazza Fontana represented a
considerable event in Italy. This attack was the element release mechanism
of the "strategy of the tension", orchestrated by the Italian secret
services with fascists as hired men; implementation at the request of CIA
directly and through GLADIO; supported by a part of the DC; supported by the
Lodge P2.
    The objective was to limit the influence of the PCI, to create the fear,
to fight all which fought the established order, among which the powerful
labor union and the student movement. These responsibilities are established
today historically. But not still recognized on the judicial plan 35 years
later.
    Piazza Fontana remains even today an attack without culprit."

Italian Communist Party declared in this time that the anarchist Valpreda
was a fascist!

Red Brigads appear in 1970.

Here is a resume of Fascist attacks facts with the accomplice of a part of
the army and the police more mafia trying putsches to access the power. (On
Aldo Moro attack, let know the proof appearing later that Italian major of
the secret military services was on the spot at the time of the kidnapping)-
and I remember of Feltrinelli the Publisher murdered, and later Pasolini,
former communist and daring to indicate the last Mussolinian township Salo,
and whose death was payed by any or several ones who were not homosexual but
forthere?

Italy, this magnificent country but terrible country of the denial, where
Gramsci,the visionary conseilliste which was not a criminal far from there,
was able to be locked during twenty years "until he will not know how to
think any more" and thus until the death without meeting the freedom before.

    Quote Carlo Roccella:

    " We speak about corruption, but we do not imagine a power which
arranges as one pleases a country of 5O million inhabitants as Jacques
Médecin in arranged Nice.
      We speak about Mafia, but we are far from the Godfather. Do we imagine
a network which, of village in city, from local elected member to
representative, from financier to magistrate, controls the totality of
invitations to tender and public financing during fifty years?
       Or still, we speak about repression, but do we know what that is, in
a country which the rite of the vote allows to call up democratic, a police
and an army which stained with blood streets and places where the young
people and the workers tried to shout their hunger of justice?
      Finally, we speak about terrorism, but that say to you these names,
these dates, these figures, these bombs: in December 12th ' 69 Piazza
Fontana 16 deaths, 88 wounded persons; in July 2nd ' 70 train Freccia del
South 9 deaths 139 wounded persons; In September 25th ' 70 murder of five
calabrian anarchists; in May 28th ' 74 Piazza della Loggia Brescia 8 deaths
94 hurt; in August 4th ' 74 train Italicus 12 deaths 105 wounded persons; in
August 2nd ' 80 park of Bologna 85 deaths 200 wounded persons, bombs always
exploded during periods of strong mobilizations popular. Without counting
the dozens young activists killed by the fascists and the police during
demonstrations, of the North in the South.
     I do not want to to dismiss back to back the deaths of some and deaths
of the others; let us leave the martyrs to the generals and to the
clergymen. The victims of the Christian democratic regime and his allies do
not doubtless justify the development of an armed and clandestine fire-back,
but they doubtless help to understand it.
     This last one, besides, was not the fact of a group of isolated
activists. He was born, he soaked in a strong social movement, rich in
utopia and in creative revolt: not an avant-garde Latin District, but a vast
carnival of the spirit where the young workers, the unemployed persons, the
students, the feminists, by hundreds of thousands built, during ten years
the only shelf of hope when it was given to live during these years filled
by the arrogance of the power.
  It is our history, the history of the generation which, between
contradictions and illusions, revolutionary verbosities and despair
eventually gave birth, among other things, to the political and moral dead
end that was the armed struggle. But it is also the history about the
generation which said "no" and which looked for its dignity to the dark
places where we do not recognize any more itself."

> > Since 1981, they have been legally residing there on the promise
> > made by the former French President Francois Mitterrand.
>
> Ahem.  François Mitterand was a model of legality?  His arbitrary
> decision to flout the Italian judicial system should be accepted as
gospel?

(On that gospel you have an answer at the third alinea below)But it is the
leader of the party of mister Chirac, mister Juppé then leader himself of
François Mitterrand's cohabitation government, who made the decision in
agreement with mister Chirac to attribute to Cesare Battisti a resident's
permit for ten years. Mister Chirac would deny his own political credibility
of leader of party if he denied the credibility of his propes journeymen; on
the other hand he would lose his institutional credibility of President If
he did not assure the continuity of the laws under which and for which he
was elected. The same credibility askes a symbolistic engagement of security
to refugees.

> > Cesare Battisti, the author of several detective novels
>
> Writing detective novels makes you above the law?

You make fun? Or then you are a little bit simplistic.

I shall tell you precisely on our law in the following words; there is not
one law to all the world there are multitude (I mean both numerous and
miscellaneous) of laws. French Right is one among other respectable laws and
Italian law could be. Your own law wherever you are is not the center nor
the totalitarian law of the world. The same glance is applicable to the
various systems of justice which estimate or apply respectively these laws
(if these laws are compatible with the Universal Declaration of Human
Rights).

> > In Cesare's situation, the Italian governement convicted him in his
absence
> > with only repentant's testimonies.
>
> If he didn't want to be tried in absentia, he shouldn't have fled Italy.
>   And if he thinks his conviction was unjust, he should appeal, like
> anyone else.

There is no appel from the law in this Italian opportunity of Judgment in
absentia ; being imprisoned is the exclusive Italian issue ; at this moment
he could not leave France to go to his Italian lawsuit because he was in a
lawsuit in France to decide what; he could not leave France or never come
again. We have the duty to assume his security in France because we did not
allow him to go to his lawsuit in Italy. We owe the security to the refugees
that we agreed to receive after a sentence by the justice of our country.

> That's called justice.

Injustice is not the word but a better approach...

Every country holds its own law and we refuse ingerence in our law. We do
not ask to Italian government for a general multilateral amnesty. If they do
not know how to honor the equality under their own law after a strike quite
a civil war, from our part we do not try to convince them; we try simply to
convince them of the legitimacy to defend our Rights inside even they
presents differences towards the outside. France is not a clone of Italy and
fortunatly from every part. European are critical peoples to each others:
that is one of the best solutions to Europe waiting the good justice of God
on earth...

If you are American or Australian or somebody else, you will understand
seeing which follows how difference is not only a necessity but a fact: if
you are British let us see as the Euro does not look like you, and soon the
meta-constitution of the Community will not look like you more - and
definitively maybe? And more you would like in us to subtract by ourselves
our last chances? Our feeling consists thinking that without the
insubordination in front of the Nazis in France co-worker, we would have
been only people without symbolic substance.

The minorities among the majorities are which and only which justify the
civil question of liberty as citizen of our neo-liberal or post-liberal
countries. But all the contrary is the majority of the world as people and
more increasing in number who is not the powerfull one. That is the way of
the world that what is just enun is not it other enun. Please keep a a
two-tier sight more than anything else.

Our concept of amnesty which is not a multilateral penal but political
concept. It is moreover the Gaullist tradition by which de Gaulle rebellious
was received in asylum by British government then coming in France freeing
Paris with Leclerc army then spent time by the justice except the crimes
against humanity he proclaimed the general amnesty hope to re-accord the
divided people.

In France after the Shoah we could not desagree insubmission that is an
imprescriptible duty of our memory. That is our culture. Insubmission of a
minority, autonomy, more right of asylum explain our concept of amnesty
which is not multilateral penal but a political dualistic (Machiavellian but
calling social and civil peace) concept. It is one of our conceptions of the
civil duty in certain situations. It is moreover the Gaullist tradition by
which de Gaulle rebellious was received in asylum by British government
where he directed Resistance and then coming in France to free Paris with
Leclerc army and spending the time of the justice (except crimes against
humanity), he could proclaimed the general amnesty hope to reaccord divided
people. That itself is Chirac's reference and under which he was elected and
resisted front of America on the question of the war last year, whatever
that could be on the oil production.

And for one time, if you are French thinking on our critical tradition at
the beginning, that one respecting the difference of the points of view at
the end, whatever is your party and even if you do not love the parties, the
reasoning on Battisti is the same. That there was crime or not involving the
political right in front of the slander - of more Battisti whatever deny the
charges of the penitents but careful not to become an informer himself as
ethics, which do not facilitate him the task.

A.G.

> Ben

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Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 08:11:11 +0200
From: Patrice Riemens <patrice@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: <nettime> Civil and human Rights (from indymedia)

Hi Benjamin,

Ooops, you're not going to make friends here!

But I think your reasonning is flawed too...

On Mon, Apr 26, 2004 at 07:42:02PM +0100, Benjamin Geer wrote:
> Aliette Guibert wrote:
> > Around 150 former Italian activists, condemned in Italy for actions linked
> > with the political and social upheaval of the 1970s
> 
> Translation: nutters who believed that murdering politicians and random 
> civilians would make them popular.

In the case of Cesare Battisti, he is the first to admit so much (if in 
other words). Many other refugees would probably agree.

> > Since 1981, they have been legally residing there on the promise
> > made by the former French President Francois Mitterrand.
> 
> Ahem.  François Mitterand was a model of legality?  His arbitrary 
> decision to flout the Italian judicial system should be accepted as gospel?

1) moral consideration: does one wrong justify another one? 2) practical
consideration: FM indeed made an argumented (de- and renounce violence),
and official promise. It's not good for a government to renegue on that,
especially not in France, because of the Vichy precedent (the regime
which 'de-naturalised' French jews)

> > Cesare Battisti, the author of several detective novels
> 
> Writing detective novels makes you above the law?

No, but CB kept to the conditions of his asylum. Afaik he did not even 
much engage in political activities, like many political refugees do (and, 
immo, should not)

> > In Cesare's situation, the Italian governement convicted him in his absence
> > with only repentant's testimonies.

Knowing more about that system and its attendent juridical constructs does 
not make one particularly happy. These are indeed 'exceptional' laws...

> If he didn't want to be tried in absentia, he shouldn't have fled Italy. 
> And if he thinks his conviction was unjust, he should appeal, like 
> anyone else.  That's called justice.

The theory is flawless, but the Italian practice (and before soon, 
probably the European ones, witness for instance Blunkett's latest 
musings) is somewhat beyond reprieve.

So my conclusion: Cesare Battisti should remain in France, and so the 150 
orso other Italian 'asylanten'. The Italian legal system should be 
shorn from its closet political justice part maskarading as criminal law 
with a vengeance (France used to have a specific political jurisdiction 
("Cour de sureté de l'état"), abolished by Badinter in 1981, and I wonder 
if that was such a bad idea... 

cheerio, patrizio and the Dinosaurs!

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From: ".: s0metim3s :." <s0metim3s@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: RE: <nettime> Civil and human Rights (from indymedia)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 23:04:43 +1000

: Writing detective novels makes you
: above the law?
[...]

: That's called justice.
:
: Ben

I'm not sure writing detective novels makes
someone above the law; but I'm certain that those
who can decide what is/isn't legal (a question
that has has nothing to do with what might be
just) are above the law.  This is a precondition
that assertions of the virtues of law-abidingness
seem to prefer to forget.

For instance:  >> Lawyers acting for detainees on
Nauru have had their visas revoked as they were
preparing to board their flight to Nauru. Lawyers
were to represent three of the detainees in a case
challenging the validity of their detention on
Nauru. The case will proceed with detainees
represented by a local paralegal facing a team of
lawyers, barristers and a QC funded or employed
the Australian Government. <<

The rest at http://flotilla2004.com/

Talk about the virtuousness of the law,
sovereignty, jurisdiction has reached high farce,
or maybe just tragi-comical proportions...

best,
Angela
_______________

<end message>

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Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:31:22 +0100
From: Benjamin Geer <ben@socialtools.net>
Subject: Re: Right of answer please/ Re: <nettime> Civil and human Rights
 (from indymedia)

Aliette Guibert wrote:
> Who are you to show so much contempt and aggressiveness?

I think the French left has displayed an amazing arrogance on this 
issue, which betrays an entirely unjustified attitude of superiority and 
condescension with regard to the Italian judicial system.

> What are your political convictions?

My sympathies in this context are with the Italian trade unions, which 
have since the 70s campaigned strenuously against the violence of the 
Red Brigades and similar groups.

 > Is the law your personal fundamentalism?

Not at all, but I think the double standard you are proposing is 
hypocritical.  If you want to argue that Western legal systems are 
morally wrong and should be abandoned, please do so; you will find in me 
a sympathetic listener.  But then I also would expect you to question a 
president's power to grant amnesty.  If you want to argue that the 
liberal-democratic state is inherently oppressive, fine, I agree.  But 
if that is your position, why are you siding with the French state 
against the Italian one?

>     "The fascists of Piazza settled Fontana

I am well aware that Italian police and prosecutors have on more than 
one occasion tried to blame anarchists for acts of violence that had in 
fact been committed by anarchists.  However, in this case, it seems that 
the case against Battisti is clear, because even he admits that he is 
guilty.

Your use of this example shows, I think, that you are outraged by cases 
in which a legal system failed to uphold an ideal of justice, and that 
you therefore do believe in the rule of law.  Why, then, do you not wish 
to see it applied in Battisti's case?

> Italy, this magnificent country but terrible country of the denial, where
> Gramsci,the visionary conseilliste which was not a criminal far from there,
> was able to be locked during twenty years "until he will not know how to
> think any more" and thus until the death without meeting the freedom before.

Did Battisti's victims in the 1970s deserve to die because Gramsci was 
imprisoned in the 1930s?

> We speak about corruption,

Does the corruption of the Italian government (which is surely no worse 
than the corruption of the French government) excuse the murders of 
innocent people?

>       We speak about Mafia,

The Italian justice system that you seem to disdain has often shown 
remarkable courage and integrity in pursuing the mafia.  The antimafia 
judges Giovanni Falcone and Paolo Borsellino successfully prosecuted 
many mafia bosses, and both of them paid for their lives for their efforts.

>        Or still, we speak about repression, but do we know what that is, in
> a country which the rite of the vote allows to call up democratic, a police
> and an army which stained with blood streets and places where the young
> people and the workers tried to shout their hunger of justice?

'Hunger of justice' -- that is exactly my point.  Why has the Italian 
girotondo movement focused its efforts on defending the judicial system 
from political interference?  Because the judicial system is the only 
existing institution that is capable of challenging Berlusconi's 
attempts to gain unlimited power.

> But it is the
> leader of the party of mister Chirac, mister Juppé then leader himself of
> François Mitterrand's cohabitation government, who made the decision in
> agreement with mister Chirac to attribute to Cesare Battisti a resident's
> permit for ten years.

Chirac and Juppé are as corrupt as Mitterand was.  So what?

>>>Cesare Battisti, the author of several detective novels
>>Writing detective novels makes you above the law?
> You make fun? Or then you are a little bit simplistic.

I am pointing out the bad faith of the article you forwarded.  The fact 
that he wrote detective novels, which is completely irrelevant to the 
question of his innocence or guilt, is supposed to make us sympathise 
with him.

> I shall tell you precisely on our law in the following words; there is not
> one law to all the world there are multitude (I mean both numerous and
> miscellaneous) of laws. French Right is one among other respectable laws and
> Italian law could be.

Could be?  What makes you think Italian law is less respectable than 
French law?

> We have the duty to assume his security in France because we did not
> allow him to go to his lawsuit in Italy.

This argument is specious because he admits his own guilt.  It would 
make more sense to argue that France (a country whose institutions 
loudly proclaim the rule of law) has a duty to make him serve his sentence.

> Every country holds its own law and we refuse ingerence in our law.

Yet you argue that a French president has the right to overrule Italian law.

> We do
> not ask to Italian government for a general multilateral amnesty. If they do
> not know how to honor the equality under their own law after a strike quite
> a civil war,

It is a huge exaggeration to call the 'anni di piombo' a civil war, if 
that is what you mean.  However, laws were passed in Italy in the early 
1980s offering reduced sentences to 'pentiti' (former terrorists and 
criminals who turned state's evidence), and most of the former members 
of the Red Brigades, including those who murdered Italian Prime Minister 
Aldo Moro, have in fact been released from prison.

> Our feeling consists thinking that without the
> insubordination in front of the Nazis in France co-worker, we would have
> been only people without symbolic substance.

Since you mention the Nazis, I should point out that many of them were 
extradited for their crimes decades after the fact.  Do you object to 
that as well?

Ben

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Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 21:06:33 +0100
From: Benjamin Geer <ben@socialtools.net>
Subject: Re: Right of answer please/ Re: <nettime> Civil and human Rights
 (from indymedia)

Benjamin Geer wrote:
> I am well aware that Italian police and prosecutors have on more than 
> one occasion tried to blame anarchists for acts of violence that had in 
> fact been committed by anarchists.

Typo here: should read 'committed by fascists'.

Ben

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