<nettime> creative fictional debtors of the world united [schmidt x2, kleiner]

[nettime's_qualitative_easing <nettime@kein.org>]

Re: <nettime> The fiction of the creative industries
     Matze Schmidt <matze.schmidt@n0name.de>
Re[6]: <nettime> Debtors' of The World Unite! The Initiative 
     Matze Schmidt <matze.schmidt@n0name.de>
Re: Re[6]: <nettime> Debtors' of The World Unite! The 
     Dmytri Kleiner <dk@telekommunisten.net>

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Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 23:25:04 +0200
From: Matze Schmidt <matze.schmidt@n0name.de>
Subject: Re: <nettime> The fiction of the creative industries

Hello,

> Most musicians no longer need a record
> label, but can master their music on a laptop.

This is exactly the phantasma of the small single autonomous producer
(The Beasty Boy's "Rhymin & Stealin" chorus) against the truth of an
_existing_ big Creative Industry -- not in the plural but thought as one
worldwide factory of enemy-brothers. This Industry has the distribution
channels and the studios for bigger shows than a website only.

Since the Creative Industry is not just the fiction or fantasy of some
governmental managers and think tanks it will be and is a centralised
action as re-action and in answer to the economy crisis today. This is a
process, not just a factory or shop floor as one place in one time as
the concept of the sociological theatrical drama of a nation in trouble
(here The Netherlands) tells us. The name of it is not important. Name
it Symbol Industry or Rotterdam or Berlin, it works. But it works only
as long as the first sector of real productivity works, namely and e.g.
the Automobile (and yet very creative) Industry and the Energy Industry,
as this creative industry of the Uberbau (superstructure) totally
depends on the productivity sectors, just as the academical 'sector' is
subsidised by the state form taxes, so from workers wages funds and the
social art-groups are grant-aided for instance by the German Goethe
Institute, thus the state again.

An irony is that

> The German artist Gerhard Merz

just got the job in 1998/1999 to color the Foreign Office of Germany --
very de-creative of course. A hairdresser for the state so to say.

So it's all about the notion of an

> "industry" that, right because of new technologies
> and globalization, really is

not

> a post-industrial patchwork

, because of new technologies nonetheless anarchic but at the same time
planned.

And who still believes in

> Tattoo Bob

Marleys (in the plural), can easily leave behind the stardom -- the rest
of the consumers is left behind to feed the stars with real tattoos on
their skins.

Matze Schmidt

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Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 18:24:18 +0200
From: Matze Schmidt <matze.schmidt@n0name.de>
Subject: Re[6]: <nettime> Debtors' of The World Unite! The Initiative 
     to form an International Debtors' Party.

> They know they are Debt,

I think that's totally wrong. 'They' may know or feel (which is not the
same I insist) they 'are' debt, ore to be more adequate they are _in_
debt not _the_ debt, but that's not their position as a worker. Their
position as a civic debitor is this debt-position (pay back the
credits!), but as a worker (= producer of goods) they are only giving
their lifetime to produce the profits and they are paying the taxes that
create the funds for paying the debts of banks or other emergency credit
plans for the capital.

> so

the debt

>is

not

>the logical place to start.

It is the factory still and not the individual house or bank account
(the individual finance economy). Althoug uprisings started often in the
streets and at the social place of having nothing but hunger, the
revolutions which had been successful had to take over production as the
main and key field.

> You don't need to convince people they are debtors', they know that
> already. We need to convince them instead that non-capitalist provision
> of housing, education and medicine is the solution to the problems they
> have, and this is possible because the solution is implied by their felt
> conditions, and does not require being convinced of any complex theoretic
> or ideological positions to support.

This model, "to convince them instead that non-capitalist provision of
housing, education and medicine is the solution to the problems they
have", remains in the avantgarde role and leads back to the problems of
e.g. the Bolshewiks had or created.

One can learn of course form them, that problems are based in felt
conditions (Kronstadt) but the solutions were never implied in felt
conditions but in changed situations. The solutions now are implied in
the system of the crisis now, as one form of capitalism showing itself
as the debt. But the crisis is an overproduction crisis, every worker
knows that, who has to build a car he can not afford. That's not complex
or ideological. Instead the talk about the debitor is the lower or just
middle class position-theory.

And further, "they" don't have the problems, workers (and non-workers)
reproduce them and are stuck. But I think the real line does not go in
direction of convincing anybody of socialism (provision of housing,
education and medicine) but the line soon goes into conflicts Mid Europe
hasn't seen for 70 years. Then or after this one can think of a
non-capitalist ways of production.

Matze Schmidt

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Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 21:12:20 +0200
From: Dmytri Kleiner <dk@telekommunisten.net>
Subject: Re: Re[6]: <nettime> Debtors' of The World Unite! The 
     Initiative to form an

On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 18:24:18 +0200, Matze Schmidt <matze.schmidt@n0name.de>
wrote:

> I think that's totally wrong.  'They' may know or feel (which is not the
> same I insist) they 'are' debt, ore to be more adequate they are _in_
> debt not _the_ debt, but that's not their position as a worker. Their
> position as a civic debitor is this debt-position (pay back the
> credits!), but as a worker (= producer of goods) they are only giving
> their lifetime to produce the profits and they are paying the taxes that
> create the funds for paying the debts of banks or other emergency credit
> plans for the capital.

I guarantee no mass movement will be ever organised around such abstract
arguments. 

> It is the factory still and not the individual house or bank account
> (the individual finance economy).

Yes, of course control of productive assets is the goal. But first you
must had to mobilise the masses. You can't skip that step. And for this you
need consciousness. Something that you can not create, but must already
exist as a consequence of real conditions.

> This model, "to convince them instead that non-capitalist provision of
> housing, education and medicine is the solution to the problems they
> have", remains in the avantgarde role and leads back to the problems of
> e.g. the Bolshewiks had or created.

So the only possibilities are Capitalism or Bolshevism?

Mobilising a movement is not vangardist, ignoring the solutions implied by
their felt conditions and forcing theoretically-grounded alternatives on
them is. The idea of a vanguard is that a small cadre does the thinking for
the masses, the idea of a mass line is different, that you take up the
interests and demands of the masses through the lens of theory.

> But the crisis is an overproduction crisis, every worker knows that, who
> has to build a car he can not afford. That's not complex or ideological.
> Instead the talk about the debitor is the lower or just middle class
> position-theory.

You are forgetting that almost no worker has "built a care he can not
afford" since most workers in the Western economies are no-longer direct
producers. As explained in the text.

> And further, "they" don't have the problems, workers (and non-workers)
> reproduce them and are stuck. But I think the real line does not go in
> direction of convincing anybody of socialism (provision of housing,
> education and medicine) but the line soon goes into conflicts Mid Europe
> hasn't seen for 70 years. Then or after this one can think of a
> non-capitalist ways of production.

Perhaps. But in any case, the reintroduction of class struggle into
politics through mobilising workers around the issue of Debt remains a path
to building social power. What specific solutions emerge is cookshops of
the future territory. 

Best,

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