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| <nettime> Tags in the fucking Cloud: .nl haxxxxorz; or, What's wrong with the kids these days? |
https://www.puscii.nl/blog/content/whats-wrong-kids-these-days
Tags in the fucking Cloud
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What's wrong with the kids these days?
Submitted by groente on Tue, 03/26/2013 - 14:51
On the moral decay of the Dutch hacker scene
A lot has changed since the days when the people around Hacktic set up
and defined the Dutch hacker scene. The Hang Out made way for a variety
of hackerspaces; Hacktic itself is long dead (who needs dead trees to
communicate nowadays anyway?) and the crew organizing OHM2013 is a
completely different one from the oldies that had set up the Galactic
Hacker Party and HIP. In short, we're looking at a complete new
generation of Dutch hackers.
Of course, nothing is more normal and healthy than for kids to rebel
against their parents, but our parents have given us a difficult task
there. For how in hell does one rebel against oldies who
self-identified as "techno-anarchists" and were all too pleased with
their image as online rebels? Some of the kids found a way: join the
police! Well, technically, create a company that does the online dirty
work for the police, but in this day and age of neo-liberalism and
privatisation the difference is marginal...
Now, the notion of hackers voluntarily joining the police probably
sounds completely absurd to an outsider, but that's pretty much what
happened. The Dutch High Tech Crime Unit is called Fox-IT. In case the
name doesn't ring a bell, they're the main sponsor of OHM2013, employer
of half of the organising core team, and you may find their logo
painted on the wall of a Dutch hackerspace - not as a
fuck-the-police-type graffiti, but as a thank-you for their kind
sponsorship.
Let's have a closer look at this company. Founded in '99 by two TU
Delft alumni who had previously worked for the NFI (forensics
institute) and the BVD (secret service), Fox-IT started as a relatively
normal security company. Such was the hip thing to do for a hacker who
wanted to legally cash in on their skills at the height of the IT
bubble. Things start to get saucy around 2006 when they developed
FoxReplay, a tool for wiretapping, and started selling on the
international market. Not caring much for their customers regard for
human rights, Fox-IT has promoted their services to countries like Iran
and the United Arabic Emirates, and sales to Egypt have also been
confirmed. On September 27th 2011, Fox-IT sold their tapping-branch to
the US company Netscout, conveniently just one day before a change in
EU regulations was to place restrictions on the export of wiretap
equipment.
But things also get a lot closer to home for the Dutch hackers, as
Fox-IT has assisted the Dutch police in the apprehension of 4 members
of AntiSec NL, a Dutch group closely linked to Anonymous.
To add to the sauce, Fox-IT has been experimenting with 'hacking back',
as they call it. In an operation that was meant to take down the
Bredolab botnet, Fox-IT used the seized 'command and control' servers
to inject code on infected machines worldwide to display a message from
the Dutch police. A clever hack, if you will, but also a controversial
and illegal one. Lately, Fox-IT has been publicly lobbying to create
legal rights for law enforcement to actively crack target systems.
Fox-IT now has customers worldwide and around 150 employees. They are
the prototype of a privatised blend of law enforcement and defense,
unhindered by any ethics and stretching its praxis to the shady borders
of legality.
That's the kind of company considered hip amongst contemporary Dutch
hackers, who seem all too happy associating with and working for them.
Fox-IT is actively recruiting within the scene, and many a hacker who
used to share his tools and knowledge now works for them. Now, where
did that come from? Sure, the scene has always had a bit of a
flirtatious relationship with the secret service, but the old Hacktic
crew simply giggled at the silly men with sunglasses and trenchcoats
who attended their meetings. Moreover, they were exposing the
wiretapping and other sniffing methods that were in use then, giving
the general public means to detect, if not avoid, or play around with
them.
Those early days of the hacker scene were marked by a shared sense of
ethics: a hands-on attitude, for freedom of information and a healthy
distrust of any authority. Luckily, on a global scale, many of these
values have persevered. For example, one look at the CCC website is
enough to see a strong outspokenness on the political issues
surrounding hacking, actively monitoring and criticizing state
surveillance. In fact, hackers worldwide are working on tools to
subvert (state) surveillance and censorship. Furthermore, with the rise
of Anonymous and related groups, we have seen an incredible increase in
politically motivated hacks and cracks, all based on those same basic
values of personal freedom and distrust towards authority.
How are we to interpret the bizarre contrast between upholding these
values and happily accepting a company like Fox-IT in our midst? Are
OHM and a number of hackerspaces drifting away from the hacker scene
towards the security industry? Or do people simply not think or care
about these issues because they distract from playing with LEDs and
arduinos? Maybe the money is simply too good? Either way, the Dutch
hacker scene is suffering from a severe case of schizophrenia where, on
the one hand, it identifies itself with a global scene struggling
against surveillance and, on the other hand, it condones, receives
money from, advertises or even concretely works on the buildup of
exactly that surveillance state.
The usual approach to such mental illness that is seen all too often
within the hacker scene is to simply ignore it and bury it deep down in
our subconciousness. Indeed, sometimes simply ignoring the peculiar
conflicts that arise within our brain may lead us to perfectly happy
(though perhaps somewhat socially awkward) lives. Not in this case,
though. As the world around us is transforming, the importance of
resolving this inner conflict is becoming ever more urgent. Like it or
not, the hacker scene is a key player in a much larger political game
that will determine the face of future online communication. If we are
to sell away our skills to unscrupulous companies working for
power-hungry governments, that future could be very grim.
It is for these reasons that the current generation of hackers needs to
take a step back and reconsider the wise lessons our parents gave us.
One cannot simply take the cool image of being a hacker yet act in ways
that are complete opposite. It's not cool to assist in the creation of
an Orwellian dystopia. It's also definitely not cool to assist in the
apprehension of your fellow hackers (imagine how they might feel about
attending the largest European hackercamp this year). That is not to
say it's all black and white, or that we should form some sort of
unified front, but maintaining a praxis that is the direct opposite of
what you are preaching is both unhealthy for yourselves and dangerous
towards others. So please, work out who you really are and where you
stand. Read the old philes and the new. Rethink what's going on in the
world around you. Discuss the role we play in it. Define your identity.
And, in the end, if you still wish to call yourself a hacker, leave the
fox out.
Comments
Submitted by anon on Tue, 03/26/2013 - 16:36.
I am a little upset right now...
I was so sad that I couldn't attend HAR2009. And I was really looking
forward to visit OHM2013. Thank you for clearing this up on time, so I
can reschedule to go to another place this summer.
* reply
Submitted by anon on Tue, 03/26/2013 - 17:46.
Huh?
Really? You thought the point of this blog was to say that OHM2013 is
going to suck? I really don't understand your reaction, unless you
really care that much about who is on the sponsor list.
* reply
Submitted by anon on Tue, 03/26/2013 - 19:32.
anon
if you don't care about who is the sponsor probably you haven't
understood the post itself. OHM2013 does suck if it's sponsored by that
company.
* reply
Submitted by anon on Tue, 03/26/2013 - 20:45.
har2009 was sponsored by fox-it too
so har2009 sucked as well! end of argument.
* reply
Submitted by anon on Tue, 03/26/2013 - 21:41.
The difference was that back
The difference was that back in 2009, foxit wasnt actively performing
and pushing for strikeback ;)
* reply
Submitted by groente on Tue, 03/26/2013 - 20:57.
this is not a boycot
Just to be clear, this was never meant as a callout to boycot OHM, nor
was it meant to imply that the whole event sucks. It's merely spelling
out what should've been an obvious 'wtf?' and giving some food for
thought...
* reply
Submitted by anon on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 00:36.
the death of ohm 2013 by groente
Too late 'groente': the uptake of this article by fefe has led to a
storm of outrage from the German hacker community (who remember their
own NAZI past well and now get into a fit against anything that
remotely smells of their own ways back then).
Volunteers are dropping out.
Congratulations, you killed OHM. I was looking forward to it! Now we
may *never* have this event again in The Netherlands. The only event
where the dutch hackers come together in the thousands and are
interacting with their peers.
A black day in the history of dutch hackerscene. A name to remember.
'Groente', the man who killed OHM2013.
* reply
Submitted by anon on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 05:08.
not to blame
_if_ german hackers are dropping out in the hundrets, groente still
isn't to blame for it, because $correctTM then would be: "Don't tell
people about our gold sponsors", which makes no sense.
* reply
Submitted by anon (not verified) on Thu, 03/28/2013 - 01:11.
who needs german hackers
who needs german hackers anyway ? they smell !
* reply
Submitted by anon (not verified) on Thu, 03/28/2013 - 11:03.
Very childish...
Very childish...
* reply
Submitted by fierman on Tue, 03/26/2013 - 21:04.
no, ohm2013 does not suck
The mere fact that people are raising questions to the scene does not
mean that the whole event 'sucks'. In fact, most of the people from the
Puscii collective will be present at OHM2013, actively participating in
discussions and events.
The main question is of course: how can we relate to our own values
like respect for privacy, human rights and critical thinking, while at
the same time 'we' are co-operating with companies who are literally
opposing those same values. That is a question the hackerscene should
be willing to discuss and answer. One of the best places to do that is
at OHM2013,
* reply
Submitted by anon on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 00:41.
Relax! It's only money...
And without the substantial kind of sponsoring, like Fox-IT is giving,
there would be no OHM2013 to go to and discuss all this.
People, it's just money... It wasn't taken from dying children, no
kittens were killed for it, and it will be used for the greater good.
It may be money coming from governments. Maybe even some very rotten
ones. So in effect *they* may even have sponsored OHM.
But I can only see this as a good thing: Even if the most evil
governments have -indirectly- sponsored OHM2013, this does not change a
thing about how we can use that money. OHM2013 is a 100% independent
event. Sponsors get no say in the content.
Just be glad that money wasn't spent on buying weapons or the like!
* reply
Submitted by anon on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 14:04.
In money we trust!
I found your comment really stupid. How you can say that the origin of
money doesn't matter? And do yu really think this money is no meant to
be considered an investemnt in new kind of weapons?
First result, really concrete, is that there are people that consider
normal to have partenrship with governement and military agency, to
sell tools to control and limit other people, just to have a bigger
conformt area!
What's the greater good that money will be used for? To create a great
show about hacking with a lot of colorful and tricky superficial
details but the inside is fucking rotten: how you can talk about
freedom when the event is organised with money mad3e by limiting
freedom of other people? You just becom a puppet in the hands of that
agency.
It would be much better to ask to pay a fee than have a free but bloody
event!
the way to get to a goal is even more important than just reach the
goal!
* reply
Submitted by anon on Tue, 03/26/2013 - 22:52.
Alternative
One way to deal wit this ...
How much did Fox give? Lets raise that money and tell Fox to stay away.
* reply
Submitted by anon on Tue, 03/26/2013 - 23:03.
Start raising...
Start raising...
* reply
Submitted by anon on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 05:36.
good idea
imo
* reply
Submitted by anon on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 11:55.
EUR25.000,-
Fox-IT is a gold sponsor, meaning they gave at least 25.000.
With 3.000 people attending this is EUR8,33 euro per person...
But it shouldn't be to hard to find 25 companies, NGO's, groups or so
that are willing and could pay EUR1.000,-
Hey, it is the age of crowd-sourcing, right?
* reply
Submitted by anon on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 13:58.
EUR 50000
Don't forget costs for breaking open a signed contract.
Great ethical solution: we don't agree with something, so we just pay
to have it removed from sight. Nicely done, the Hollywood content
criminals have taught you all well.
* reply
Submitted by anon (not verified) on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 16:36.
If you think it isn't that
If you think it isn't that hard to find a sponsor who doesn't feel the
need to influence the program, please feel free to ask these sponsors
to read the sponsor documentation and contact the board.
Some possible sponsorships already are declined because they did want
to influence the camp and/or the program and that is NOT something OHM
organisation (which could be you, because it can be anybody) wants.
* reply
Submitted by anon on Tue, 03/26/2013 - 23:07.
Fox is not our biggest problem
Cannot remember this being an issue back in the good 'ol days of 2009
when Fox-IT was also one of sponsors that provided much needed *early*
cashflow. The world was *slightly* less insane back then but only
slightly (wikileaks members had not yet been openly threatened by
western governments with extra-judicial killing - and if you don't
know what that means you really need to read this post to the end).
The old-fart part of me does agree with some of the 'kids-these-days'
feelings voiced in the piece on PUSCII, just not the focus on Fox. A
willingness to fight and take real and personal risks for
basic-priciples is needed more than ever in our societies today. A
willingness to understand what is happening in the world (especially if
this is very outside your comfort zone) and to help others do so is
just as important. A bit more Free Software (principled stand) instead
of just 'opensource' (practical method) would not hurt the Dutch
technology scene IMHO.
I sometimes voice the opinion that the rules applied by the victors of
WWII to German leaders (thou shalt not initiate offensive wars based on
lies) should now also apply to the leadership of the US, the UK and the
Netherlands. For this I am called a radical. Perhaps more of us need to
get a bit radical or risk waking up in 1984 someday soon. If
no-one pushes back against the stuff you're trying to accomplish you're
obviously not trying hard enough.
Do note that OHM2013 will be the *only* major event in the Netherlands
were some important whistleblowers from the world of spooks and spies
(CIA, NSA, FBI, MI5) are given a platform to share their insights with
people who will hear about them for the first time. Just as HAR2009 was
the *only* place in NL in 2009 were Wikileaks got a soapbox in front of
a significant audience. That's how messed up the country is
right now.
We offer something real at a time when it is much needed. I would not
be involved with OHM if it were otherwise - life's too short and the
planet too fucked-up to mess about with minor stuff.
(Arjen Kamphuis does not work for Fox-IT and left IBM in 1999 ;-)
* reply
Submitted by anon on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 01:37.
A well written article deserves a somewhat OK response...
Thanks for a sourced and well written statement, i can only respect an
author that has taken the time and liberty to write a story that is
backed up with some facts and details. This should be commended,
whoever the author may be.
Free will:
The author states that working for a company results in the employee
fully accepting all that the company has done in the past and that the
employee wholemindedly promotes and understand every aspect of that
company, implying that such company has the power to remove any free
will of the employee. Such is not the case, as absolutism on working
for companies / having some mindset is just as dangerous as absolutism
by state control. Look at the Zen symbol.
Insiders:
Hackers also have a significant impact on the direction of many
companies. Is having "insiders" not a crucial prevention of absolutism?
Many company-people are very stupid/short-sighted and might aid in more
forcefully oppressing hackers. For example: without embedded hackers
and the good spirits of those, there would be no "responsible
disclosure" policy and the movement that companies will adopt this.
We:
There is no such thing as "we". "we" just happend to be. I don't like
to be controlled by people that say that "we" should do anything. "we"
is temporal, "we" is separating people, fuck "we". If someone wants to
be part of the "we" and be an outspoken mistrusting, over skeptic,
conspiracy driven individual, so be it. Is this also "we"? Maybe...
Just another random vision:
Although your story has critique and is fairly negative while not
having consulted the opposing party. This makes bad journalism and
turns this into a column thing. But I still like it over empty
allegations, because it gives a body to discuss and might inspire
people. But be careful: Even when everyone and everything has changed
their ways, there are still people using some (possibly outdated) facts
to create a negative image. Just to refer foxes: this is what companies
like Fox News do best.
-- Stitch
* reply
Submitted by anon on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 08:05.
Lagging behind
The general trend with "the kids these days" is, in my observation,
going in the right direction. Whereas for years the hacker community in
The Netherlands was half-heartily following thought leaders from the US
and Germany, there seems to be a trend to form an opinion that develops
in the same direction as Germany. I'd say it's lagging behind a bit,
which only reflects society as a whole. Bits of Freedom, the rise of
hacker spaces, debate around government agencies recruiting, this all
leads to more outspoken opinions.
What The Netherlands lack is a single platform to discuss. In Germany
there is the CCC, where a clear opinion was formed and guarded over
more than 30 years. In The Netherlands no such thing. There is the
four-yearly hacker camp though, a most excellent spot to discuss trends
like described above.
* reply
Submitted by anon on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 09:27.
HITB network run by police!
Yes you are right it is bad. Did you know that the hacker conference
next month in amsterdam, hack in the box (HITB) has a network team with
the leader (ruud or ruuder or something) being a guy who works for the
police? You think i will go to a conference where the police are
tapping the network because they make the network?
oh and that same ruud or whatever is also the leader of the hackerspace
in amersfoort. really, hackers stay away from hitb ohm or the
hackerspaces they are all infested with cops!!
* reply
Submitted by anon on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 10:03.
TOR and CCC are in it as well
You know TOR? From Jacob Appelbaum? You know they are working closely
with the police in the US and The Netherlands, right?
https://blog.torproject.org/blog/trip-report-tor-trainings-dutch-an
d-bel...
And Dingledine is also good friends with Rop Gonggrijp, you know. The
example hacker from way back? He sold out to KPN, and now has a company
that makes cryptographic phones. And those are sold to governments to
keep their communication a secret from their people.
And what all the germans are upset about? They should look at
theirselfs first: one of the CCC figureheads at least works for the
same company from Rop Gonggrijp making phones to help oppressive
governments to keep their secrets.
So not only the dutch hackers are falling for the trap. The american
hackers are too, and so are the Germans!
* reply
Submitted by Jacob Appelbaum (not verified) on Wed, 03/27/2013 -
21:10.
open dialog is important
Working closely? Hardly. Talking with people? Understanding what
they're doing and how anonymity actually is seen, used and debated
across the spectrum? Yeah - what exactly is wrong with such activities?
Anonymity must be for everyone and if we try to pretend otherwise,
we'll see that only the police and intelligence agencies have
anonymity. That is basically the current state of affairs - anyone with
privilege and wealth is welcome to their privacy at a cost; everyone
else is out of luck. I want privacy, security and anonymity for
everyone on the planet.
Cryptophone is used by lots of people around the world. Demonizing
Frank and Rop for Cryptophone is unreasonable. They produce devices
without a backdoor and have led the way to normalizing secure
communications for everyone - yes, it includes people that I personally
find uncomfortable and yet, such a thing cuts both ways. Will you also
demonize them for allowing WikiLeaks to use such phones?
When speaking at the NCSC event, I made it perfectly clear that police
malware and wiretapping are wrong. Not just ethically but also
strategically. I openly challenged the current "intelligence service"
way of operating.
I encourage you to attend such an event and discuss your feelings on
the matter openly. If you think merely conversing with the people
attending NCSC is somehow evil, I'd ask you to share how you've come to
that conclusion? If you think that speaking about the issues and
threats we face (essentially a talk similar to the 28c3 talk that Roger
and I gave about Tor) is wrong, I'd ask again, how did you come to that
conclusion?
* reply
Submitted by anon on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 11:32.
Bullshit
What is bullshit, are you still a client at KPN/Tmobile/Vodafone/etc?
They also work for the Dutch Police... :p
BTW, if you are such a crazy and 1337 hackah, aren't you smart enough
to install an openvpn then?
* reply
Submitted by anon (not verified) on Thu, 03/28/2013 - 01:07.
openvpn has fox it code in it
Using openvpn would be stupid. check the commit logs, fox-it is one of
the committers of that vpn software.
* reply
Submitted by anon on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 13:46.
lol
ik wil wat jij rookt
* reply
Submitted by Ruuder (not verified) on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 14:45.
I like this speculation of
I like this speculation of monitoring if you like come and check out
our nice non existing tapping hardware at hitb, but if you think you
are so good that you coud lay you hands on all this information why the
.... can't you find out my real name or nick. With that i wish you a
very nice day.
* reply
Submitted by anon (not verified) on Thu, 03/28/2013 - 01:05.
HITB network master is police snitch
If you realy want to know i looked up the details. *** CENSORED *** and
works for a detachment company where he is now stationed at the police
offices in emmen to manage the IT infrastructure of the police.
Think of that. The person who manages it infrastructure for the police
is managing the network at a so called hacker conference. I am sure
your tapping infrastructure is well hidden at hack in the box. And as a
nice detail, what company sponsored hitb last year in amsterdam? Yes.
It was fox it.
* editted by groente: please don't abuse our blog for d0xing.
* reply
Submitted by fierman on Thu, 03/28/2013 - 01:10.
HITB is hardly a hackerscene
HITB is hardly a hackerscene event. It is a network event for the
security industry. please do not confuse the two :)
Also, it is not up to us to judge on what people do in their spare
time, and where they work; especially when the distinction is very
clear. Completely different discussion, which only distracts here.
* reply
Submitted by zarya (not verified) on Thu, 03/28/2013 - 12:14.
Very nice you found all that
Very nice you found all that information, but its still wrong. I will
give you the right details then.
I am Rudy my nick is Zarya. it is true that i do something with
networking for the Police but its nog managing but its designing there
is a big diference. today is my last day in this function. I have
nothing to do with the tap department i design firewall and network
infrastructures i dont implement them.
I hope you are well informed now. btw i dont work in Emmen.
If you still think that we install tapping equipment at HITB that one
is true, in the bar downstairs you will find most of our tapping
equipment. It is used to tap a alcoholic liquor called Beer.
* reply
Submitted by anon (not verified) on Fri, 03/29/2013 - 16:26.
HITB
HITB was sponsored by Fox-IT last year, and even worse this year
their sponsor is VUPEN who supplies western governments with:
As the leading source of advanced vulnerability research, VUPEN
provides government-grade exploits specifically designed for the
Intelligence community and national security agencies to help them
achieve their offensive cyber security and lawful intercept missions
using extremely sophisticated codes created by VUPEN Vulnerability
Research Team (VRT)."
http://conference.hitb.org/hitbsecconf2012ams/
http://conference.hitb.org/hitbsecconf2013ams/
http://www.vupen.com/english/services/lea-index.php
* reply
Submitted by anon on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 11:58.
Response from @ioerror
I'm really happy to see that someone took the time to write this
article
and I'm also happy to see that it was related to puscii. For those that
do not know the history of ascii and puscii - these two groups are two
extremely important parts of Dutch/European sustainability, artistic,
hacking and autonomous culture. I've long respected their squatting
activity, their Free Software ethics and their political actions.
I find the observations in the article extremely grim and depressing -
it is largely as a matter of agreement, I might add. The desire to
collaborate with authoritarian power structures is often hand-waved
away
with "one has to eat" or "we're not helping Syria" style arguments.
They're often followed up with arguments about fear of punishment or
about the so-called justice done on occasion by such structures. The
privatization of this kind of policing is concerning. It is built on
the
already questionable notion that the police themselves would be
legitimate actors in this space if they merely had the talent. This is
false in many cases and such partnerships generally seek to expand the
authoritarian reach of the State, without any of the democratic
oversight, transparency or even the semblance of consent on the topics
at hand. Most people hardly understand the abstract ideas involved, let
alone the actual concrete details.
The Dutch police actually do this on many levels - that is - they do it
not only with private Dutch companies like Fox-IT but also with other
law enforcement. The FBI has some full time people who are embedded
within the Dutch law enforcement offices. My understanding is that they
have desks in the same (!) office area as other Dutch police. Consider
this as a threat not only to the Dutch democratic processes but also to
the notion that the Netherlands is somehow independent in terms of
law-enforcement and intelligence. Surely, one would not jest that the
FBI deployed with the Dutch police would serve the Dutch police first,
right? Perhaps they'll take some puscii members who are actually Dutch
citizens to sit with their FBI office counterparts? It seems doubtful
and as such, it raises questions on a number of levels.
I've met a lot of Dutch police in the last few months as I have
recently
visited the Hague for the latest NCSC event. Many of the higher level
computery security folks are personally nice people. Even some of the
AiVD people are personally friendly - quite a difference from some of
the other intelligence agencies. Obviously, I'm not in agreement with a
lot of their policies, their methods, tactics, strategies or even
comfortable with their relationships. While they do work for goals that
I think are reasonable such as stopping non-consensual human
trafficking, it is perhaps with methods that may lead to abuse or other
serious concerns. I don't hold any personal contempt for them for doing
what amounts to a thankless job. I do however find myself thinking that
the new Dutch hacking generation should not forget that some power
structures are not worth supporting simply because one is not
personally
oppressed by it on a daily basis.
With that said, the complicity of hackers in these kinds of actions is
beyond loathsome. Rather than helping to actually secure our systems,
we
see compromises that undermine the very core of our modern world. If we
look to the physical world for an analog of such total surveillance,
even in camera heavy parts of the world, humanity still largely rejects
such total spying programs, if they are lucky enough to be consulted at
all. Why then should people of any stripe help to build similar systems
that are nearly total and almost completely incomprehensible to most
people on the planet? The answer is simple: we shouldn't! Hackers and
those who are technically literate have a responsibility to consider
the
larger issues at stake. Those who don't, who just follow orders, who
use
simplistic self-serving reasoning in place of thoughtful ethics - those
people are building a world where most of humanity will be subservient
to such architecture. Total identification, total and complete logs of
our activities, our relationships, our beliefs, our experimentations,
our core values - everything. History will not reflect well on such
people and the near future will be extremely uncomfortable if those
resisting have anything to say about it.
I look forward to leaked documents and leaked software about companies
like Fox-IT as well as details on such surveillance programs. While
people are digging, don't forget to identify the people and the money
trails involved - if such companies will promote and construct such
systems for all of us, lets give it to them first!
Leak more documents!
In solidarity,
Jacob
* reply
Submitted by anon on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 13:56.
Response to Jacob Appelbaum
Americans are not part of the solution right now, Americans are part of
the problem. That is a very black and white statement. One which I
don't fully believe in. But Jacob Appelbaum is an American who is part
of the problem. By exporting his self-righteous belief and morality
upon other countries, he distracts attention from the source of many of
todays problems: the united states of america.
That the US law enforcement agencies are infiltrating the Dutch police
is not the fault of the Dutch police. We are forced by the US patriotic
and oppressing foreign politics to have these feds among us. No-one
here wants them, yet we are powerless against the sanctions we face
when we go against the US.
Jacob, you are a crowd pleaser. You are someone with a black-and-white
view of the world, one which reminds a lot of the McCarthy period in
your country. Where you were either a morally impecible American or a
communist. Where a witch-hunt was commenced to clear the US of any
leftist dissidents. Or the recent wars you waged, wars that no-one
wanted but everyone was forced to join with your president's 'either
you are with us or you are against us'.
You are forcing people away from a good cause by making the world
appear to be a matter of black-and-white. Please fix your own country
before you blame other countries for compliance with your colonial and
oppressive regime.
Many of us work in IT, many of us work with Cisco, IBM, Microsoft,
Fox-IT, Madisson Gurkha, Philips, Competa, LogicaCMG, Pink/Roccade and
any other number of larger and smaller IT firms. All of those people,
in your black-and-white view of the world are 'against you'. Do not
think you will find sympathy within that group (still the large
majority) by claiming they will be the first against the wall when the
revolution comes. Those are empty threats.
Also, what has puscii done lately for the world at large apart from
writing rants from their wellfare-benefit paid for armchair in their
illegaly squated dwellings? Nothing.
Please Jacob, go back to fixing your own country and stay there until
you fixed that. Don't go bragging about telling other countries they
are bad for complying with your own policies.
* reply
Submitted by anon (not verified) on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 20:26.
So PUSCII is government
So PUSCII is government sponsored... that's outragous.
And for all this money they sell complaints and grievances.
It's rediculous.
* reply
Submitted by groente on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 20:48.
for the record
puscii was and always will be completely independent from whatever kind
of sponsorship. neither do we have to rely on rich parents or state
allowance for our daily income.
also, our complaints and grievances aren't sold, you get them for free.
it's indeed ridiculous.
* reply
Submitted by Jacob Appelbaum (not verified) on Wed, 03/27/2013 -
21:53.
stay classy
(For your information: The original post wasn't by me - it was posted
as part of a discussion on a mailing list; I'll reply to you here as
this is the forum where you have decided to participate.)
Your attempts ironic nationalist rhetoric is only made worse by the
notion that all perceived members of some national group are somehow in
lockstep. It is made worse by your statements that we're somehow less,
even when one generally agrees with you! Perhaps you could have made
some overtly anti-Muslim statements with your xenophobic commentary?
Perhaps in the next reply?
I'm a very vocal person about the United States of America and so often
a critic that it causes me serious issues. For you to suggest that I
distract attention from the issues that directly relate to the US is
simply incorrect. My 29c3 keynote was entirely about the threat that
the NSA poses to the entire world and that this fault is squarely on
the shoulders of the people in the US. Did you miss that? Did you miss
the discussions about the drone strikes or the illegal wars? I have
protested the Afghan war from the outset as I did with the Iraq war and
the drone war over the entire planet. When I spoke out against the
assassination of even Bin Laden himself that I was (actually) spit upon
by other Americans. Do you seriously suggest otherwise?
The entire point of my statement is that the FBI shouldn't be sitting
in the Dutch police offices - if more Dutch people knew that this was
the case, I suspect there would be protects, actions and likely
lawsuits. As far as I understand Dutch law, it is actually quite
illegal. When you suggest that you are powerless, I suspect that you
mean that you have made your choices and feel powerless in your
position - for whatever reason - if you feel that you are really
forced, bring it out and show that you are forced; openly debating is
one of the only ways that these things will change. This is why I
called for more leaked documents - the internal debate that is hidden
from view will help to clarify exactly these issues that puscii raises.
Your comment is particularly offensive when you compare me to the
McCarthy era as one of the McCarthyists. I have lived in the last four
years under heavy surveillance, with intense harassment and I have been
unofficially blacklisted at times by my very own government. Why is
that? Because I have effectively protested and resisted those wars you
reference.
You like to suggest that I'm of the black-and-white cloth without
understanding that there are hard edges. Yes, I firmly believe that
political assassination by the state for free speech related issues is
essentially always wrong. No, I do not believe that people working at
Cisco are evil. No, I don't think that people writing proprietary
software are bad people - at worst is is simply a waste of human
effort. Hardly a stark condemnation. You suggest that because some of
my hard edges are controversial that I'm black-and-white for every
topic. Absolute nonsense. I think those at Cisco who helped design and
implement the Golden Shield project, especially those who marketed it
for finding religious minorities - those people are on the wrong side
of history.
I have worked extensively to stop US companies from participating in
such activities because I agree that the US is the source of so much of
this technology. I am not alone in this action, I'm a minor player at
best. Does that mean that I have a black-and-white view? No. It means
that I have firm boundaries and I stand my ground. People who work on
products that are *intentionally* used to assist in ethnic or political
cleansing are on the wrong side of history. When they are later known
to be used in such a way, I think continued support of it is extremely
questionable. If you think you're the majority with such behavior, I'd
encourage you to claim it openly. If you think the majority of such
behavior isn't even remotely related, I'd encourage you to state that
openly as well. If it isn't a big part of the business, I guess it
should be an easy part of the market to abandon.
I agree that the United States is in dire need of reform - our wars,
our imperialism, our push for things like a new CALEA, our drone
strikes, our War on Some Drugs; all of it and almost without exception.
It is however nearly impossible for the US to have such reform as long
as other countries refuse to push back even slightly.
You suggest that I alienate you and others from these otherwise good
causes and I say, if you're alienated by your perceptions of my
actions, I question your actual commitment to these causes in the first
place. I'm not a fan of the falun gong but I would never side with
those who torture them because I consider their beliefs or expressions
to be different than my own.
Oh and while we're talking about our own national politics - I look
forward to your analysis of the Dutch monarchy, the Raad van State,
internet and telephone surveillance, and its role in supporting the
aforementioned US imperialist wars.
* reply
Submitted by Juerd (not verified) on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 22:34.
Re
(Cross-posted, like the original article, to both this blog and the
mailing list . In Dutch; sorry about that.)
Puscii skribis 2013-03-26 13:16 (+0000):
> What's wrong with the kids these days?
Om je uitspraken in de juiste context te kunnen lezen, zou ik graag
willen weten wie de schrijver van het artikel is. Hoe oud (bejaard?)
ben
je, als je deze mensen "kids" vindt? En waarom heb je het idee dat het
fenomeen dat je beschrijft, iets met generaties te maken heeft? Wat
doet
leeftijd er eigenlijk toe?
> On the moral decay of the Dutch hacker scene
TL;DR: Ik ben het ten dele met je eens, maar vind dat je het te zwaar
aanzet, en ik kan je argumentatie niet helemaal volgen.
> In short, we're looking at a complete new generation of Dutch
hackers.
Wat kort door de bocht. Er is verloop, maar er vallen zeker geen
generaties te onderscheiden.
Het gaat hier echt niet om kinderen en ouders. Je metafoor klopt m.i.
totaal niet, en staat potentieel de kern van de discussie in de weg.
> Some of the kids found a way: join the police!
Alsof er nooit eerder hackers bij of voor de politie hebben gewerkt?
> Now, the notion of hackers voluntarily joining the police probably
> sounds completely absurd to an outsider
Alleen omdat outsiders denken dat alle hackers crimineel zijn. Dat
geldt
noch voor de oude rotten, noch voor de jongste aanwas.
> The Dutch High Tech Crime Unit is called Fox-IT. In case the
> name doesn't ring a bell, they're the main sponsor of OHM2013,
Ik vind Fox-IT geen prettig bedrijf, maar als ze hun geld willen
uitgeven aan onze feestjes, zeg ik: met beide handen aanpakken die
poen!
(Al was het maar om meer profijt te hebben van het geld dat we met z'n
allen aan belastingen betalen.) Het moet onafhankelijkheid niet in de
weg staan, en daarom ben ik een stuk skeptischer als het gaat om het
sponsoren van hackerspaces en doorlopende initiatieven, maar voor
kortstondige dingen zoals evementenen zie ik weinig risico's. Het is
niet alsof we bij het organiseren van eerdere evementen vervelend
hebben
gedaan als overheden zich van hun beste kant lieten zien met hun
vriendelijke medewerking.
Joh, al komt het geld van de paus. Zonder geld kun je het evenement
niet
van de grond krijgen.
Daar staat tegenover dat ik erg blij ben dat zoveel Nederlandse hackers
diep in de buidel tasten om hun hackerspace de kans te geven om
financieel onafhankelijk te blijven.
> employer of half of the organising core team
Lichtelijk beangstigend als je het mij vraagt, maar dit zegt wellicht
meer over de arbeidsmarkt voor hackers, dan over de mensen die ervoor
kiezen (of zich genoodzaakt voelen) om voor Fox te gaan werken.
> and you may find their logo painted on the wall of a Dutch
hackerspace
> - not as a fuck-the-police-type graffiti, but as a thank-you for
their
> kind sponsorship.
Fuck the police vind ik sowieso een kinderachtige houding waar ik me
graag van distantieer. De politie is een gigantische organisatie van
voornamelijk welwillende mensen. Dat ze ook (grote, gigantische,
verwerpelijke) fouten maken, is nog geen reden om de politie als
organisatie als vijand te zien. "Alle kleuren zijn mooi" is te kort
door
de bocht.
Onder hackers en hackerspaces bestaat grote diversiteit. Dat er een
hackerspace is die sponsorgeld accepteert en een vosje op de muur
schildert, wil echt niet zeggen dat de gehele Nederlandse
hackergemeenschap daar achter staat. Sowieso heb ik begrepen dat ze
(Hack42 dus) een specifiek project hebben laten sponsoren, niet de
hackerspace zelf.
Hacken betekent voor verschillende mensen ook verschillende dingen. Wie
het hacken vanuit een puur technologisch perspectief benadert, zal zich
minder bezwaard voelen om activiteiten te laten betalen door laakbare
partijen, dan wie hacken (ook) vanuit een ideologische hoek ziet.
> Not caring much for their customers regard for human rights, Fox-IT
> has promoted their services to countries like Iran and the United
> Arabic Emirates, and sales to Egypt have also been confirmed.
Als je de verkoop van producten en technieken aan landen met dergelijke
nare regimes, hoe denk je dan over het gratis weggeven van software en
het openbaar delen van kennis?
En wat hebben ze ueberhaupt verkocht? Is een mes een wapen, of een
gereedschap dat (al dan niet toevallig) ook als wapen kan worden
gebruikt?
Hoe zit het dan met schroevendraaiers?
> AntiSec NL, a Dutch group closely linked to Anonymous.
Ja, want iedereen weet dat Anonymous een vastomlijnd en enkelvoudig
iets
is, waar je banden mee kunt hebben. En ze blijven altijd binnen alle
universele ethische grenzen.
> A clever hack, if you will, but also a controversial and illegal one.
Veel hacks, van hackers in privesfeer, van bedrijven en van overheden,
zullen controversieel en illegaal zijn. Maar controversiele en illegale
dingen kunnen best goed zijn. Ik ben fel tegenstander van
"terughacken",
maar je kunt je in het debat beter niet laten leiden door wat er
momenteel in de wet staat. Vaak zat is de wet zelf gewoon fout.
Je kunt "het is illegaal" simpelweg niet als argument gebruiken in een
discussie over ethiek.
Of, anders gezegd: you say "illegal" like it's a bad thing.
> Lately, Fox-IT has been publicly lobbying to create legal rights for
> law enforcement to actively crack target systems.
Het is hun recht om een mening te hebben, die mening te uiten, en te
proberen de wet aangepast te krijgen om hun wensen uit te laten komen.
> [Fox-IT] are the prototype of a privatised blend of law enforcement
> and defense, unhindered by any ethics and stretching its praxis to
the
> shady borders of legality.
Hear, hear.
> That's the kind of company considered hip amongst contemporary Dutch
> hackers, who seem all too happy associating with and working for
them.
Er zijn hackers die dit hip vinden en graag voor zo'n bedrijf willen
werken. Er zijn ook hackers die homoseksualiteit haten. Er zijn hackers
die PHP fantastisch vinden, en er zijn hackers die vinden dat domme
mensen minder rechten zouden moeten hebben.
Zoveel hackers, zoveel meningen. Het zijn net mensen.
> Those early days of the hacker scene were marked by a shared sense of
> ethics
Ethiek is een persoonlijke beleving, en inderdaad is er vandaag de dag
zeker geen consensus binnen (enorm gegroeide) de hackergemeenschap. Hoe
groter een groep wordt, hoe meer het op allerhande gebieden het
gemiddelde van de bevolking zal benaderen. Dat betekent voor
hackergroepen vaak dat de gemiddelde intelligentie afneemt en dat de
ooit gedeelde ethiek niet meer zo vanzelfsprekend is. De schaduwzijde
van sociaal succes?
> For example, one look at the CCC website is enough to see a strong
> outspokenness on the political issues surrounding hacking, actively
> monitoring and criticizing state surveillance.
Dat zal ook heel veel te maken hebben met hoe vroeg de CCC is begonnen,
met hoe enorm de CCC propaganda voert binnen de eigen gelederen, en dat
het een grote club is waar mensen blijkbaar graag bijhoren. Nederland
heeft zo'n organisatie niet en het window om een dergelijk instituut op
te richten is volgens mij al geruime tijd voorbij. Nederlandse hackers
van weleer, de oldies die je eerder benoemde, hebben kennelijk nooit de
neiging (of het doorzettingsvermogen) gehad om zich officieel te
organiseren en in die structuur op grote schaal gezamenlijk politiek te
bedrijven. Dat ze dit hebben nagelaten, kun je ook opvatten als iets
positiefs.
> Are OHM and a number of hackerspaces drifting away from the hacker
> scene towards the security industry?
Hacker scene en beveiligingsindustrie overlappen. Het is duidelijk goed
mogelijk om je in beide te begeven, hoewel dat zeker sociale
consequenties heeft. Werk je voor Fox-IT, dan zul je sommige geheimen
wellicht niet te horen krijgen van andere hackers. Ben je actief in de
hackergemeenschap, dan zul je sommige geheimen wellicht niet te horen
krijgen van je werkgever. Of juist wel, om je loyaliteit en
geheimhouding op de proef te stellen. Ik benijd mensen die zichzelf in
die situatie brengen in ieder geval niet.
Wat betreft OHM: bij het organiseren van zo'n feestje werp je je op als
quasi-professioneel evenementenorganisator. Er komt weinig typisch
hackwerk bij kijken. Het is hard werk, waarbij politieke menings-
verschillen vaak geen belemmering vormen.
> The usual approach to such mental illness that is seen all too often
> within the hacker scene is to simply ignore it and bury it deep down
> in our subconciousness.
Er is een prettigere manier om om te gaan met diversiteit: omarmen!
Net zoals je mag geloven wat je wilt, en ik het niet met je eens hoef
te
zijn, en zoals je mag uitspreken wat je vindt, en ik het niet met je
eens hoef te zijn, mag je ook werken voor een werkgever, zonder dat ik
het met je eens hoef te zijn. Dat hoeft samenwerking en vriendschap
niet
in de weg te staan.
De situatie wordt overigens echt niet genegeerd. Het is heel vaak
onderwerp van discussie, althans zeker bij RevSpace, en ongetwijfeld
ook
in andere hackerkringen.
* reply
Submitted by groente on Thu, 03/28/2013 - 00:49.
@juerd
The metaphoric use of generations shouldn't be taken too literally, i
think it has more to do with the general spirit of the times then the
actual age of people. What i was trying to accomplish was depicting a
simplified genealogy of the narratives within the dutch hacker scene.
The generation metaphore seemed appropriate enough and saved me from
having to use tl;dr-academic-talk.
As for why the notion of hackers joining the police sounds absurd?
Trying to wave that away because of the way the media has depicted
hackers seems a bit too easy. I don't even think hackers are generally
regarded as criminals. Online rebels? yes, criminals? not necessarily.
Hacking has connotations of the subversive (no wonder given the
self-labeling as techno-anarchists) and playful creativity, which
hardly are attributes one would ascribe to the your average police
constable.
Speaking of the your average police constable; before you dismiss a
fuck-the-police as childish, please bear in mind that being on the
receiving end of a truncheon (often enough simply for voicing ones
opinion) doesn't generally add to ones willingness for nuance and
subtleness.
Having said that, let's get a bit more to the point. You (and you're
not the only one) seem to claim that Fox-IT has no influence whatsoever
on the organisation of OHM. Don't you think it's ironic that the
spokesperson of OHM today quoted in Der Spiegel stressing how there was
no influence on the program ... is also working on marketing at Fox-IT?
While it may not be as apparent as direct influence on the program,
there are of course reasons why a company hands over a pretty large
amount of money.
What bothers me most is the image of acceptance it portrays, by
accepting a company like Fox as your sponsor you're implicitly
endorsing its policies and activities. So yes, Fox-IT has the right to
express and lobby for their political views, but that sure doesn't mean
you should endorse them. Quite frankly, when OHM has activists listed
as their target audience yet at the same time endorses a company like
Fox-IT, this leads to division by zero.
The subject of endorsing brings me to your point regarding diversity.
Sure the scene is very heterogenous and in principle this is a very
good thing. But when you say 'there are hackers who hate
homosexuality', I would sure hope they be removed from the terrain the
moment they start their hate mongering. Celebrating diversity and
freedom of speech should not be confused with blindly accepting the
intolerable. As much as I empathise with peoples economic circumstances
that might force them into jobs that go directly against hacker ethics,
I maintain it is a very wrong signal when the promotion of said jobs is
silently endorsed or even encouraged.
Anyway, one of my main reasons for this rant was the impression people
didn't know or simply didn't care. I'm happy to hear there's already
been lively discussion at revspace. I'm also very happy to see there is
now a much broader discussion and I sincerely hope all those
considering boycotting Ohm will still be there to participate in the
real life discussions on how to deal with these issues.
ps. I'm really not that old, but don't you know it's impolite to
ask...?
* reply
Submitted by anon (not verified) on Thu, 03/28/2013 - 10:11.
"Don't you think it's ironic
"Don't you think it's ironic that the spokesperson of OHM today quoted
in Der Spiegel stressing how there was no influence on the program ...
is also working on marketing at Fox-IT?"
How is this ironic? What are you suggesting?
"there are of course reasons why a company hands over a pretty large
amount of money."
In this case, what specific reasons are there?
"So yes, Fox-IT has the right to express and lobby for their political
views"
Do they have the right to lobby for their political views? What rights
are these rights exactly?
--stitch
* reply
Submitted by anon (not verified) on Thu, 03/28/2013 - 11:07.
To be clear, the sponsor
To be clear, the sponsor contract was signed September 2012. The two
board members of IFCAT didn't work for Fox-IT at that time.
* reply
Submitted by gmc (not verified) on Fri, 03/29/2013 - 01:36.
...
That is incorrect. I started working for fox-it in june 2012.
* reply
Submitted by anon (not verified) on Thu, 03/28/2013 - 03:13.
K.I.T.T.! I need you!
But we all loved Michael Knight from the Foundation for Law and
Government (F.L.A.G.) and MacGyver of the Phoenix Foundation, didn't
we?
All those adventures, going where official law enforcement and military
couldn't go due to some pesky laws.
* reply
Submitted by Herman Acker (not verified) on Thu, 03/28/2013 - 10:21.
Old people seem to forget details about the past
Groente glorifies the past and despises involvement of Fox-IT. As a
hacker from the past I would like to note that the past was less
glorious. We didn't have a respectable Fox-IT company backing
initiatives.
Organized crime and radical groups tried to get a foothold within the
hacker community with the aim of abusing any outcome. These guys were
always in the background, trying to influence the community and to
monitize hacks. I don't see fox or any other security firm sponsoring
these events doing this.
For the record: I have no ties with Fox, I don't like it when someone
tries to abuse history.
* reply
Submitted by groente on Fri, 03/29/2013 - 06:10.
Old people seem to be in need of glasses
Sure the past had its fair share of problems, but atleast the
narratives and praxis seem a lot more coherent. And given the trail of
dirt they've left behind, I'm not so sure whether I'd qualify Fox-IT as
'respectable'.
Is actively recruiting in the scene and sponsoring events not 'trying
to get a foothold within the community?' Also, monitizing hacks is
pretty much their core business. If you can't see that, I would suggest
a visit to the optometrist...
* reply
Submitted by anon (not verified) on Thu, 03/28/2013 - 21:22.
official statement
Here's an official statement on the OHM2013 website regarding this
subject:
https://ohm2013.org/site/sponsors/sponsor-policy-faq/
* reply
Submitted by Damien Ward (not verified) on Fri, 03/29/2013 - 16:32.
Contact
Hi there Groente -- would love to talk to you about this topic some
more, is there any way I could get in contact?
Thanks
* reply
Submitted by groente on Sat, 03/30/2013 - 03:53.
contact
Hey Damien,
Sure, you can find me on IRC (IRCnet, OFTC or irc.indymedia.org), or
mail to groente at surprisesurprise puscii dot nl.
* reply
Submitted by gmc (not verified) on Sat, 03/30/2013 - 15:06.
On hackerspaces, Fox-IT and OHM2013
My personal contribution:
http://wordpress.metro.cx/2013/03/30/on-hackerspaces-fox-it-and-oh
m2013/
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