Peter Tomaz Dobrila on Tue, 17 Jun 1997 14:24:41 +0200 (MET DST)

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Re: <nettime> Translation: The vagina is the boss on internet

Hi again dear...
> In the United States, the accepted meaning of i.e. is "that is."  This is
> very different from "for example," which is signified by "e.g.".
Sorry. So e.g. But maybe is English i.e.? I'm not sure. It is not my
first language.
> Regardless, the point stands that feminism is not about revenge against bad
> men.  It is about a social movement that promotes equality of the sexes,
> and that actively fights against sexist stereotyping.  Period.  If I read
> correctly, you yourself insisted that you were "not a feminist" (a
> conclusion that could have been inferred from context had it not been
> stated explicitly).  Given that, how can you justify trying to define my
> social movement?    It is offensive.
What equality, if there are 'women only' things? Don't you think this is
xenophobic, chovinistic and even rasistic? Isn't it just stereotyping?
It's is the same as with your *teachers*. Most of my teachers were women,
so I should go macho, while I didn't like all of them... I'm not a
feminist and I'm not macho. I'm human, I suppose I'm not a dog. Social or
sex movement? Be precise. Society involves ALL (human) beings. And no, I'm
not offensive. I like you and it's O.K., if you are feminist. Just I don't
agree with it, making social movements with the thing between your legs.
> Who is blaming sexism on "the thole world populations <sic>"?  What I
> stated clearly, and what I repeat again, is that feminism is about
> promoting equality of the sexes, and striving to acheive a world where
> opportunity is not restricted on the basis of sex and/or gender.   The fact
> that the majority of the people who live in this world take part in a
> sexist culture of some sort does not change the goals of the movement,
> which are to enact change and promote equality.
No, as long as there are 'women-only' things, you can't talk about 
equality. All different all equal. With other statements I'm supporting
you. I have a better word: humanism - it doesn't include gender, while
feminism does. 
> That is patently absurd.  Feminism is not a fight against "teachers."  Many
> teachers were *not* that way.  Feminism is a battle to break down sexist
> stereotyping, and what I gave an example of was the stereotype that insists
> that women are not competent in math and science, and that succeeds, to
> this day, to keep unjustly  many highly qualified women out of lucrative
> and challenging occupations.  To the extent that individuals are hired
> and/or promoted based on their sex rather than based on the quality of
> their work (and to deny that this happens is to look blindly upon the
> world) helps no one because it promotes an inefficient marketplace and
> inhibits the full range of human and technological progress.
So you're battling one sexist stereotype with another. Not very sensible.
I agree with other (mostly). You pointed out *teachers*, not me. Isn't
that your personal thing? I was prosecuted by communist government and
was thrown out of University. So what? Should I fight all communists? No,
I like them. I like communism.
> You are Peter, but you are also male, and you have benefitted from being a
> male, in some way or other in your life, whether you admit that or not.
For my benefits look above. But it's not my trauma.I just don't have Ph.D.
I admit everything else.  

> Perhaps you have benefitted only from the fact that you need not actively
> fear rape as you walk down a city street at night; or perhaps you have
> benefitted from that fact because you have a much better real opportunity
> to become an elected member of the government (at least if you were a US
> citizen) than your female colleagues.  But you have benefitted.
O.K. You think not? Why? Fuck the government. I have a much better real
opportunity to die (better: change my agregate state) earlier than you
would. And I have a much better real opportunity to be beaten by a gang.
And I had a much better real opportunity to go to prison. And I've got
a much better real opportunity to be shot. Welcome to my benefits. US is
not the whole world. So what do you know about ex-socialism? It was

> Personally, I strive for a world where gender, the social contruct, does
> not exist at all, and in which we can all be viewed as individuals first,
> and male or female (or hermaphrodite) as one of our many other individual
> traits.  But we are not there yet, Peter, and denying the existence of
> institutionalized sexism brings us no closer to that final goal.
I'm not denying 'institutional sexism'. But it exists for male as well.
Look for your opportunities and don't believe everything Rosa Luxemburg
and Klara Zetkin wrote. 
> There are many errogenous zones in the human body, both male and female,
> and NOTHING I wrote suggested otherwise.  But a focus on the vagina is
> clearly phallocentric, and a decision not to even mention the clitoris --
> which, I repeat, is where female sexuality is said to be "centered" in a
> way analogous to the male centering of sexuality on the penis -- is not
> trivial.    No act of sexism is trivial, and I must repeat that I find
> hardly any action more pernicious than the denial that sexism exists.
> Sexism exists.    The fact that you, personally, have perhaps never felt
> the direct harms of sexism only provides evidence of the fact that sexism
> divides the world by gender, and assigns the burdens and benefits
> inequally.  The fact that many women (most of them much younger than I am)
> and perhaps most men may disagree with this perspective does not mean that
> sexism does not exist.
I see that sexism exists, even through you explanations. But you can't
fight sexism with other sexism. Is penis vulvacentric? What male? Who?
I mentioned clitoris. CLITORIS. VAGINA. PENIS. BREAST. I'm proud of
clitoris, even though I don't have one. This is getting ridiculous. Better
name all sexists and we can E-mail them. I'll help you with that.
> I believe that your intentions are genuine.  So if you want truly to create
> the egalitarian world that you would like to think exists today, do
> something about it.  Join the movement.  Read the literature.  Talk about
> it.  Get involved.  Don't just sit there.
Join the party. Join the army. Your country needs you. I'm sitting here
talking to you. Just had a coffee. Have one and be yourself. 


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